17 August 2009

Independence Day -- Indonesia...

Happy Independence Day to all Indonesians wherever you may find yourselves in the world.

Congratulations on being 64 years young!


Kami, bangsa Indonesia, dengan ini menjatakan kemerdekaan Indonesia.

Hal-hal jang mengenai pemindahan kekoeasaan d.l.l., diselenggarakan dengan tjara saksama dan dalam tempo jang sesingkat-singkatnja.

Djakarta, hari 17 boelan 8 tahoen 05

Atas nama bangsa Indonesia

Soekarno - Hatta

or in English


We the people of Indonesia hereby declare the independence of Indonesia.

Matters which concern the transfer of power and other things will be executed by careful means and in the shortest possible time.

Djakarta, 17 August 1945

In the name of the people of Indonesia

Long live the Republic!


anong said...

Can you date the stamp Rob? Was it related to the song "Dari sabang sampai merauke"?? I tried hard but could not date this song.

Rob Baiton said...


This is where I borrowed the stamp from:


lawbee said...

Thanks. Im Philattered.

lawbee said...

Thanks. Im Philattered.

Rob Baiton said...


Must be enjoying your day off?

lawnong said...

Yes. And you better be careful or Ill ask you some questions about plea bargaining, and why none here e.g. antasari, and about why people on life sentences cannot get remissi (Corbs got it)

and finally to get back to the stamp
I note they were quick off the mark - it came out in '63, one year after the decolonialisation.

Im so relaxed I feel like two people in one!!

Rob Baiton said...


This could get really confusing if Anong and Law[insert what suits] are one and the same.

Feel free to ask questions about plea bargaining, remissions, life sentences, and the like.

It could be a little disturbing, or perhaps it would be just plain funny, though if you were to tell me that another one of your multiple personalities is Dragonwall from IM.

lawbee said...

Im not it. But keep this all under your hat will you. you might know/like this site


I went there for plea bargaining. I did read once that in the civil law system it was not acceptable to plead guilty; guilt has to be proven once and as charged. Does this ring true?

Rob Baiton said...


What am I keeping under my hat? This is an open forum.

In a civil law system the judge is the adjudicator of fact. Therefore, the judge will determine guilt based on the evidence produced by each party to the case. At least, as I recall, that is how it is supposed to work.

Brett said...

I love how the Merah-Putih is planted in Irian Jaya and Aceh - two separatist provinces :)

lawbs said...

ok, if you dont know what's under your hat it probably better that way. (at least you only have one hat to check under)

So you are agreeing with me that there is no such thing as a plea bargain here - whose fairness, if i can use that word, has been debated intensely in NSW for at least 8 years, that I am aware of. I dont like it; and I dont think it would be much of a winner here - admitting guilt and all that!!

Rob Baiton said...


It wouldn't be Sabang sampai Merauke if the red & white wasn't planted in Aceh and West Papua, would it?

Anyways, it is now Sabang to Merauke bypassing Timor Leste :D


I guess I have never seen the need to not be me and to stand by anything that I say by using my name. I guess this is the beauty of having lived and grown in a place like Australia where we generally do not have to worry too much about these things, multiple hats that is.

Although, I have often worn more than one hat, but always as me.

It feels like a set up! When have I ever just agreed with you on anything?

Plea bargaining is an interesting discussion.

I would argue that even in Indonesia the inclination is to throw the proverbial book at you and then go with whatever sticks. This is pretty good for the teflon types as nothing sticks. Is this plea bargaining?

Plea bargain is not about fairness, not in my mind, it is about getting the job done. Law has lots of technicalities with respect to proof and evidence and the manner in which these are collected then adduced at trial.

Sometimes it is easier for the prosecutors to get the lesser conviction rather than run an end game which might see them come up with nothing. So, the victims get no "justice" at all. Well, maybe they will on appeal.

The defense would not be doing its job if it did not angle for the best possible deal (fairest deal?) for their client.

These are the considerations that drive plea bargaining.

By the way, I am not avoiding the plea bargaining in a civil jurisdiction set up, rather I am not going to be drawn on the technicalities, but answer your question by posing a question in return (see above). Is this cheating?

lawbs said...

yes it cheating but it's fair cheating. I also cant quite see plea bargaining as an element of procedural fairness; in some way anything before the committal seems a bit dubious to me. Im not saying arrest is not done to a tee; just that I think there is more bargaining going on than we know about at these stages. The plea bargain, I am assuming, is an open process, after the committal.

Im happy to drop this one, and get back to that stamp - what do you think one with the two little islands missing is worth?? Shall we bargain??

Rob Baiton said...


It depends!

Are the islands missing because of global warming or because they have been stolen by the Philippines (they are a little bit too far for Malaysia)?

Seriously, I would tell you if I had the original stamp. I wonder what one would be worth?

www.cantabria-3d.com said...

This won't have effect in fact, that's exactly what I believe.