22 September 2008

Marriott Hotel -- Pakistan

Look at the size of that crater! It is not surprising that more than 200 have been injured in this terrorist attack. However, what is surprising is that there have only been about 60 deaths.

What I fail to understand is how this kind of violence wins the "hearts and minds" of the people you want to convince of the justness of your cause? It might scare them but it certainly does not convince them!

Bombings like this one do not discriminate, they kill anything in their path. I find it hard to fathom that there was a legitimate target at the Marriott Hotel to warrant this kind of indiscriminate attack.


No one has claimed responsibility yet. However, if this is ultimately claimed by the Taliban or al-Qaeda, then it would be worth getting a breakdown of the victim's religions. To see how many Muslims were killed, this would in turn emphasize my earlier point of winning the 'hearts and minds'.

Yet, for me the abhorrence of such actions are that the victims are the innocent. I find it amazing that anyone can justify the killing of innocents in the name of independence, let alone in the name of religion.

This was a planned and premeditated attack on innocent civilians.


For me this is just plain wrong on all fronts.

19 comments:

ARTIKEL PENDIDIKAN INDONESIA said...

one you should know rob, Islam never teach its followers to bomb although it is done for those who don't believe in Islam. moslems who bomb don't understand the right Islam teaching. i hope you won't conclude that Islam is a religion of terorrists

tere616 said...

The problem is Moslem people tend to view it from religion perspective.

I know that murder or kill is prohibited by any law of every religion.

But the terrorists use their religion, which is Moslem, as their vehicle to legitimate their action.

Bali Bombing, Marriot, Australian Embassy, and FPI, all of them use Moslem as their reason.

Because America is kafir, because other than Moslem also kafir.

But as a non terrorist, we have to accept it, haven't we ? Do nothing, because the arabian people don't see it as we see it.

And other people with the same fanatical view, too.

Its pathetic and totally wrong :-(

Polar Bear said...

The logic is to terrorise the population to the point when they will accept an unwanted situation.

Sadly, it works.

Rob Baiton said...

Artikel...

My point is just that. I am not concluding that Islam is a religion of terrorists. What I am wondering is if either the Taliban or al-Qaeda claim responsibility, then what is the justification when one considers that the victims are innocent civilians - this is not acceptable collateral damage for my mind.

Tere...

As above. I am wondering more about the justification. All religions at some point in time, perhaps even now, claim to kill in the name of religion. The psychos that bomb abortion clinics claim that they are doing it to protect innocent life based on their interpretation of the Bible.

My point is that we as human beings do not have to accept it. If Islam says that the killing of innocents is wrong then I think there is an obligation to not only say so but act in defense of that obligation.

I do not and will never accept that the world has to be this way.

PB...

I am sure we have probably had a discussion along these lines in the past.

I get the logic in that sense, but I just do not understand it because if it is true that the majority of Muslims in the world are tolerant and peace loving, then why is it that these moderates do not stand up and be counted?

I guess I am making it too simple or over-simplifying it, who knows?

Polar Bear said...

Rob,

You question is the one that constantly hangs in my mind. Why do moderate Muslims allow this to happen in the name of their religion?

Is it that they are scared of standing up to be counted? Is it that they really don’t care about infidels?

If every moderate in the world swore to renounce the religion if one more bomb was ignited in its name, would it make the terrorists think? And if another bomb was triggered would a million Muslims throw away the Koran?

I am told that the Koran says Muslims can lie to infidels with impunity (Al-taqiyya). Perhaps when they say they don’t agree to the bombings, this is a use of this clause.

Harmon said...

Hi guys. I read a lots of book about Islam and here is the conclusion that
Islam is purely a religion of peace. Then question is why these peoples are doing these kinds of criminal acts.

Actually there are very less minority involve in these act of terrorism, mainly by Phakhtons(a community living in Afghanistan and tribal areas of Pakistan). If you go to urbans areas of Pakistan there are very few people who are supporting these Phakhtons. majority are moderated Muslims who believed in universal brotherhood.

One more thing if any Muslim do crime then their religion is blame but if any Cristian do then it will consider from himself. We guys have to consider our self before blaming anyone religion because it will only increase the extremist. We also have to see our selves that what we are doing in Muslim countries and why are so many Muslims hate us.

If we want to stop terrorism then we have to find the reasons of terrorism

Anonymous said...

From RB

"this is not acceptable collateral damage for my mind". what is??


"If Islam says that the killing of innocents is wrong then I think there is an obligation to not only say so but act in defense of that obligation". So the killing of non-innocents is ok??

RB are you ready to hangem?? these terrorists........

Polar Bear said...

No Harmon, there is no reason, no justification for terrorism. No justification at all. We don’t need to look for it because there isn’t any justification in a civilised society.

And what exactly are we doing in “Muslim countries”?

The west cannot win. If we don’t act to stop idiots like the Taliban then half the word runs to shelter in our countries. WE CANNOT ACCOMMODATE THEM. If we remove the harmful groups like the Taliban the other half crash planes into our buildings.

The answer seems simple to me. Stop interfering in Islamic countries snd end all refugee programs. FORCE Muslims to fix their own problems.

It shouldn’t be Western Christians trying to end the appealing reign of the Taliban or Saddam. It SHOULD be moderate Muslims, but they don’t seem interested in doing it……

Rob Baiton said...

Anonymous...

Sorry pal but if you do not fess up to who you are, either by adopting a pen name or using your real name, I am just going to delete your comments.

Free speech or not. I am happy to defend the rights of free speech for those who are prepared to put their money where their mouth is.

As a matter of fact I probably will delete your current comment. Have the courage of your convictions and identify yourself or find another hobby.

Collateral damage is generally the result of poor planning or intent. In this case it is intent and the collateral damage is unacceptable. I would note that the US military, among others, would argue that acceptable collateral damage is where the unintended consequences are not excessive.

Saying that this is unacceptable collateral damage does not automatically mean that there is acceptable collateral damage.

My statement could have as easily been interepreted to mean that each collateral damage case should be determined on its merits.

However, you seem only to want to take my words, generally out of context, twist them to prove your point.

Is collateral damage in terms of killing people ever acceptable, no. Twist as you will.

Is the killing of non-innocents OK? This must be the logical extension theory, right? Are you going to define non-innocents or do you want me to do it so that you can try and twist my words again to prove another point to yourself?

If we were in a war and we were soldiers actively engaged in the conduct of the war then you would be a non-innocent.

However, if you were a soldier but had laid down your arms and surrendered then I would argue that you have legitimate claims to protection.

Whether you are an innocent is a different question

Am I ready to hang them? No. I am anti-death penalty and most people who know me know that. Would I be ready to see terrorists prosecuted for their crimes and rot in jail? Yes.

But as I said, you need to identify yourself or I will just start deleting your comments. I am happy to be criticized and have holes poked in my writings or my arguments but only by those with the courage to identify themselves.

I would have thought someone with your flare for the language would have had better things to do!

Rob Baiton said...

Anonymous...

Alternatively, we could make a deal. You don't comment and then I won't delete?

Rob Baiton said...

PB...

Not well enough informed on the lying to infidels issue.

Maybe one day I will become more informed.

Harmon...

I am not saying that Islam is not a religion of peace. I am wondering about the justifications and tolerance of these bombings, particularly if they are being perpetrated by minority groups.

Generally...

Sometimes those that make apologies for the violence and try and justify it remind me of the appeasing of Hitler in the lead up to WW2.

If we want to live in a world of peace then there needs to be an understanding that the creation of this peace is a shared responsibility.

Not seeing much sharing of the responsibility.

[I need to be extra careful now with how I construct my sentences and how much I try and convey, particularly now that anonymous is lurking in the shadows]

tere616 said...

Tried so hard to keep my mouth shut up, but I can't :-D

My point is, since the terrorism topic nowadays is related to Moslem, then why Moslem people didn't say anything, why Moslem people didn't show their dissapointment ?

Marriott is only one of the examples. Here, in Indonesia, we also have that kind of issue, even though in different way and nothing happen from the government or even from MUI.

Killing innocent people in the name of "religion" is totally wrong or whatever reason is totally wrong.

Taking somebody's right for whatever reason also totally wrong.

ARTIKEL PENDIDIKAN INDONESIA said...

Rob, I tell you. Moslems have two guidance books. they are the holy koran and al hadits (all the prophet Muhammad said and did). these two should guide all moslems to live their lives and to worship Alloh. But moslem may not comprehend the holy koran and al hadits by their own thought. because if they do so, this only produces misleading understanding. MOSLEM SHOULD COMPREHEND AL QUR'AN AND AL HADITS AS SALAF AL SHALIH (PROPHET MUHAMMAD'S COMPANIONS AND TWO GENERATION AFTER MUHAMMAD ERA WHO FOLLOW PROPHET MUHAMMAD)COMPREHENDED THE TWO. BECAUSE THE SALAF AL SHALIH, OF COURSE, UNDERSTOOD ISLAM MORE THAN THE MOSLEM TODAY. DO YOU KNOW THAT ISLAM CALL THE TERORRIST AS KHAWARIJ? TERORRISTS ARE, LIKELY, VERY FAITHFUL MOSLEM BUT ACTUALLY THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE RIGHT ISLAM TEACHING. I THINK YOU SHOULD LEARN THE RIGHT ISLAM.

ARTIKEL PENDIDIKAN INDONESIA said...

SORRY, TERORRISTS ARE, APPARENTLY, VERY FAITHFUL MOSLEM BUT ACTUALLY THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE RIGHT ISLAM TEACHING.

Brett said...

The way this was reported in the States, its got nothing to do with Islam; it was revenge from the Taliban/Al Qaeda/whoever for the Pakistani Govt's attacks in Northern Pakistan.

I don't know if this is true, but what I DO believe is that this has nothing to do with Islam.

Rob Baiton said...

Artikel...

I do not think that I am interested in converting to Islam. But, that said, I would like to learn and understand more.

Once again, I am not trying to say that Muslims are terrorists. I am, though, trying to understand the point of killing in the name of religion.

Brett...

Yes. I have heard this too. The revenge angle was, if I am not mistaken, originally a call from Osama bin Laden for Pakistani Muslims to rise up against the government in response to the Pakistani government's close alliance with the US in the "war on terror".

I have been reading over the last couple of days or so that Pakistani troops are firing on US planes making incursions into Pakistani air space in the Northwest.

Yet, if it is revenge for the Pakistani government's role in the war on terror, then why the Marriott?

I guess whether it has something to do with religion will depend on who claims it and what they say about the bombing.

I was wondering out loud by writing about it.

Rob Baiton said...

Tere...

Missed your comment earlier, my apologies :D

I think that there are moderate voices in Indonesia that are taking a stand and voicing their concerns in respect of using religion to justify harm.

However, it is a movement that is going to take time to reach critical mass.

I am the eternal optimist with all things Indonesian, so I am confident that this movement of moderation will ultimately reach a critical mass and drive change.

GJ said...

The problem is "fanatics" they truly believe they are right. Try and convince a football fanatic that their team is "rubbish" and see the reaction. Look at soccer hooligans committing voilence in the name of supporting their team/cause!!!

The only way to stop terrorism, is to denounce it and expel the perpetrators from the the "religion" as soccer teams/countries have done with the "hooligans".

The responsibility falls to the religious leaders and real followers to take firm action against the terrorists acting in so called name of "religion".

Remember fanatics are evident everywhere!!!!

Rob Baiton said...

GJ...

Agreed, fanatics are everywhere and not restricted to religions. Although, some might say that football (whichever code you follow) is a religion (which I guess is why religion is in the quotation marks)

Nice to see that Thailand did not kill you! You know what they say, what does not kill makes you stronger :D