Comments from Another Blog - Unspun

My apologies to Unspun...but for some reason his blog would not let me publish a lengthy comment. So, I have cut and pasted the whole thing from his blog, which can be found at http://theunspunblog.com/2008/03/13/and-what-do-javanese-girls-think/. I have inserted the comment that I could not post at the very bottom...I can do these things in my blog, right?



And what do Javanese girls think?

March 13, 2008 by unspun

Here’s advice for travelers and tourists about dating Javanese girls. Unspun wonders what the Javanese girls themselves have to say about such wisdom about them?

clipped from www.baliblog.com

Regardless of what any Javanese girl says about food, she prefers rice with everything. Do not waste time taking her to Bali Bakery for breakfast, wait until 10am-11am and go over to Warung Batavia on Jl. Raya Kerobokan, she will love it. Warung Batavia serves distinctly Javanese food and you will get no complaints. Javanese girls often catch a lot of flack from Balinese locals who attach a label to them of being bed-warmers for bules. A girl who works in a regular job may feel uncomfortable accompanying you in an environment where there are a lot of Balinese locals, especially men.If you date a Javanese girl and she starts waving to other customers in the restaurant / bar, that is a heads-up that she has been around. You may not want to pursue that situation too long. Do not offer to buy drinks for a new friend and all her companions. Latching onto a friendly tourist is a sport out here.

Posted in 1 21 Comments
21 Responses to “And what do Javanese girls think?”

on March 13, 2008 at 9:27 pm1 bob
‘Javanese girls’? An island with one of the richest cultures on the planet shudders at the offensive generalization.
Unspun, you’re debasing your excellent blog with this kind of trash. Like your occasional ‘pembantus are common’ stuff, this just reflects the usual racist nonsense of people who think Indonesian women are a type. We know what the blogger you’re quoting here is talking about, but does it need to be repeated in a more civilized forum such as yours?
If these foreigners can’t see beyond these stereotypes then let them stew in their own post-colonial swill, but I know you don’t think like that so don’t pander to them. Please.

on March 13, 2008 at 10:05 pm2 andiesummerkiss
That is quite unfair stereotyping. I hope some Javanese girl can come up with something good and smart to say back to baliblog.com. He needs to keep his “tips” for himself.
It is not only a rude insult to a rich ethnic group, also horrible offence to Indonesian women in general.
Bob is right, that is just pure trash-blogging. In his part, of course.

on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 am3 unspun
@Bob: Chill man. Why are you trying so hard to display the ingenuousness and naivety of a an American liberal? Has it occured to you that Unspun finds such postings repugnant and needs to be unspun, but unlike you who presume to speak for the javanese (”An island with one of the richest cultures on the planet shudders at the offensive generalization”), Unspun feel unworthy of such pretensions.
Perhaps that is why Unspun is inviting the Javanese women to speak up for themselves.
@Andie: I hope some smart Javanese woman, and there are so many of them out there, would too. So any Javanese girls out there who want to put these guys right?

on March 14, 2008 at 2:58 am4 Marisa
Funny how a travel blog can provide dating tips as well.
From the author’s About page.
Living in Bali means a ceremony can be taking place outside my house, a beautiful girl will lay offerings outside my door each day, and stop to say a prayer, people enjoy greeting others with a smile and have time to talk.
A beautiful girl will lay offerings outside my door each day. Really!? Last time I went to Bali, the offerings laid outside my door is from a dog.Love the island, nonetheless.
And just as andie said, Javanese women, have your say!

on March 14, 2008 at 5:26 am5 Rob
Unspun…
You know that I live for these postings. I have to disagree with Bob on this one. This is not beneath you or the blog! Besides it is not your opinion but the relaying of a stereotype and it is the stereotype that is offensive and not the posting of it.
The biggest problem that us leftist leaning loony liberals have is burying our heads in the sand. The way to break a stereotype down is to expose it for what it is and not pretend it does not exist.
But reverse this one and see what happens. When a Javanese girl walks into a mall, a restaurant, a bar, or a nightclub and all the girls start waving to him or come up offering to massage his obviously tired shoulders after a hard week, you know the bloke has been around! So, he probably is not worth spending any time with as you undoubtedly will become just another notch on his belt and a drunken story he shares with his mates, assuming he even remembers that he spent the night with you on the morning after!
Besides, male tourists in Bali consider latching onto Javanese women in all manner of places a bit of sport and a good way to waste a couple of lonely hours (ouch, an equally harsh stereotype).
Yep, generalizations whatever way they come are offensive but pretending they do not exist is not the way to go!
Unspun, as always, a thought provoking post…
trims!

on March 14, 2008 at 12:34 pm6 ambar
well well well unspun, you’ve surprised me that put this ’stereotype’ clipping on your blog. As a javanese girl I felt offended with baliblog remark, even probably some of his view might correct (his wife from east java, doesn’t she?).
I think his view might be correct in Indonesia’s setting. Being a bule means you will get more local girls than ever. Baliblog seriously thinking that he was benefit from that position. Hm typical mindset of westerners living in developing country. Good point though!

on March 14, 2008 at 1:41 pm7 pj_bali
“being a bule means means you will have more girls than ever”
“typical mindset of westerners living in developing country”
thats kind of a stereotype too isn’t it?
Anyways…
I asked my (javanese) neighbor what she thought of the posting and she just laughed. I do seem to remember her coming home one night quite distressed about some remarks made behind her back while having dinner with her expat boyfriend (now husband). It may be fair to say that some elements of Baliblogs posting are true some of the time. I am only guessing here but maybe these kinds of stereotypes are the result of experiences real or shared. I mean if you had a bad experience with a certain type taxi say 3-4 times wouldn’t you tend to avoid that type of taxi.
BTW there is a Warung Batavia on Jl Kunti ( just off the road which has a much better ambience than the one on Raya Kerobokan.
Regards

on March 14, 2008 at 2:47 pm8 Unspun
@pj: perhaps baliblog’s observations would be acceptable if he headlined it ”Dating a Cheap Javanese Girl?” As opposed to a Javanese with more class, of course.
on March 15, 2008 at 8:04 am9 Bonar
Now you make bules wondering whether they get “cheap javanese girls” or the “not so-cheap” ones. Some may get offended that you call their wives cheap.
on March 15, 2008 at 9:33 am10 unspun
@Bonar: well, as they say, water finds its own level. Some bules will go for cheap, easy Javanese girls becoase they themselves are cheap. Others with more finese would go for classy ones. Works for everyone, not just the Bule-Java combination. Those who take offense can ponder on the saying: siapa yang makan cabe dialah yang rasain pedas nya (I hope I got it right)

on March 15, 2008 at 11:23 pm11 Rob
Unspun…
On the saying front:
“belum makan nasi, belum makan!”
I would have thought that taking your acquaintance to the warung would have made sense, particularly if you are a cheap bastard! Simply, if you take her to Bali Bakery for breakfast and she eats there, then you will have to treat her a second breakfast where she can eat rice because after all “having not eaten rice is the same as having not eaten at all!”

on March 17, 2008 at 9:35 am12 Oigal
So what are the Indonesian men getting so upset about ? It’s exactly the way a significant portion of men (Majority?) treat women in Indonesia.
The snide comments, winks and whispers.
I was out yesterday with my wife (Indonesian) and we had the misfortune to be at place where a herd of government types turned up in their shiny new cars and arrogant tax payer funded glory. Sure enough, it was only a matter of time before one of the little pr*cks made a snide remark about my wife (and mother of three children) in bahasa to the laugher of his mates.
He made two mistakes, one …I speak bahasa, two.. my wife nor I am are short of words or courage when it cames to dealing with anjing. Was an ugly scene tho and he did decline my forceful offer to deal with it like men..cowards all..Better still was the look on his wife’s face, as the character flaws of her husband was expalined to her by my better half.
Instead of worrying about what a blog has to say. You might want to consider why so many women are forced to prositute themselves. Absmal education standards, no support for women with children whose coward husbands decide to desert them. Staving children in the provinces..
Before the xenophobes start talking perhaps you should look at what is really happening in your own country.

on March 17, 2008 at 1:17 pm13 Rob
Oigal…
Straight shooter as always! That is why I read your blog!
I did not know you were married to a local. I guess I have learned something new about you today and you are not as anonymous as you were yesterday!
I agree there is a double standard here and the way that some Indonesian men treat their women it is hardly any wonder there are increasing numbers of Indonesian women seeking out other nationalities to become their other half.
Rather than confront the real issues, the general misogyny of some Indonesian men towards their women, it is all that much easier for Indonesian men to label Indonesian women with foreigners as prostitutes (the term of preference that I have foundmost use is “whore”).
I am married to a local too and at first my wife encouraged me to ignore the snide remarks and forget about it but after 12 years or so I guess it has worn a little thin and now I get active encouragement to go for it! I speak Indonesian and have found that I use “babi lu!” in preference to anjing
Not surprised that it was not taken outside and resolved like men. But, the dressing down he got from your missus in front of his missus and his mates would have meant there was no saving face…

on March 17, 2008 at 1:42 pm14 unspun
@Rob @Oigal: maybe we should all form an association of expat bloggers with Indonesian wives

on March 17, 2008 at 2:56 pm15 Rob
Now there’s a thought!

on March 17, 2008 at 2:58 pm16 Oigal
Hi Rob,
Thanks bloke..
Term they use here is pelacur, they are not smart enough to use english. Although the term would be better suited to the types supposedly looking after the peoples interests.Despite all the xenophobic rubbish you hear, ask one of your Indonesia blokes to take you to see one of the Indonesia brothels that exist in every town, you better be prepared for some fairly soul destroying scenes tho.
Unspun,
Perhaps thats good idea, as Rob said “we have about had a gutful of the rude, ignorant types” that pass for representatives of decorum”
BTW..That’s why I figure I have the right to speak out. In any “normal” country I would qaulify by rights of family, time in country and contribution to the country to qualify as a citizen, so the whiners had better get used to the stumps rants and raves.

on March 18, 2008 at 12:30 am17 Marisa
I speak Indonesian and have found that I use “babi lu!” in preference to anjing
Actually, that isn’t in preference to anjing. That’s in preference to, err ..another mammal.Have you been receiving such remarks yourself? It’s a shame. Really. You must take this things seriously though, especially concerning on how safe is your living and working environment, and know where to file a complaint.My guess is you’re not living in Jakarta, or Bali.
For expat husbands, with all due respect, does it ever occur to you gentlemen that this type of incidents isn’t exactly about you being a Caucasian? Perhaps it’s more of how your wives represent herselves, the lifestyle you both share, or how the both of you relate to the locals.
Do a small talk, basa basi, give Lebaran parcels, say Hello, or Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam when you bumped into natives you happened to know, join in and be a participative citizen. And you’re Caucasians/bules, it’s easier to get the natives laughing if you’re a Caucasian, since basically you’re like people coming out of their television set. But they are not laughing AT you.
Anyways, I am an Indonesian, I’d get sneering remarks too if ever I behave “unwisely”. That’s Indonesia, what do you expect? Las Vegas?
Those are just tips though, surely you know better about your spouses, and yourselves, than I do.

on March 18, 2008 at 1:50 am18 Marisa
On second thought, nevermind the Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam part, natives will assume you’ve converted and that would lead to a major misunderstanding. Unless you actually have.
That’s just how people like me do stuffs around the neighbourhood.

on March 18, 2008 at 8:34 am19 Oigal
Ah Marissa… I appreciate your comments and believe you are serious about trying to help. Don’t get offended but by your own comments you prove how far Indonesia has to go to get out the xenophobic rut it is in.
“know where to file a complaint” surely you are not serious? government types are the worst offenders..
“all due respect, does it ever occur to you gentlemen that this type of incidents isn’t exactly about you being a Caucasian? Perhaps it’s more of how your wives represent herselves, the lifestyle you both share, or how the both of you relate to the locals.”
Despite the obvious and with due respect, obnoxious undertones of that statement. Whose business is it anyway to judge our life styles and how we represent ourselves and by right does give anyone to comment (always to the woman never brave enough to confront the male head to head).
Despite that your inference about life styles and represent ourselves stands on its own as insulting anyway. For the record (and to have to state this is a slur on Indonesian attitudes) we dress politely (no bikinis, no high heels or cheap dresses which to what you are alluding to I assume).
Thanks for your tips on how to get along with the “locals”. Speaking for myself we have live in our village for a lonng time and obviously have no issues there. As the odd sexist, insecure moron has been dealt with and the rest we have good relations with. (Again with due respect, pretty patronising comment M)
It Is the general attitude amongst the larger populace and it has everything to do with being an expatriate’s wife or gf.
“I’d get sneering remarks too if ever I behave “unwisely”.”
Insulting comment M, who are you to assume I or anyone else are acting “unwisely”..take a breath and look around and see how women are treated in this country.
“say Hello, or Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam” Here is another classic!! ..Why on earth should I or anyone else use that greeting? Fairly sure I am in South East Asia not the Middle East. The fact that you throw that in, demonstrates prevailing inability of the majority (?) to accept there are other cultures and norms of behaviour that go to make up a significant part of Indonesia. It’s about time for a lot of the little children to grow up.
Sorry Marissa, I believe you really did what to help but your comment is both condescending therein and insulting. Worse than that your assumed generalisations, were as bad as the comments made by the layabouts and to be honest to hear such a comment from an educated woman in Indonesia.
I realise this has probably offended you, but may I suggest you go back and read what you wrote and what subtext of the comments really are.

on March 18, 2008 at 8:54 am20 Rob
Wrote a really long post in response to this but it has not appeared. I have tried to re-post it and get a wordpress message about it being a duplicate…
Oigal has made many of the same points that I tried to make in my missing post…

on March 18, 2008 at 9:03 am21 Rob
Unspun… I still cannot post the comments I want? but if I try and re-post them I get a wordpress message that the comments are a duplicate post but they do not appear? Help lah!


This is my comment in response to the posts by Marisa...

I am not sure what mammal you are referring to, but OK.

My living and working environment is plenty safe enough. If it wasn't I wouldn't be here!

Good guess, but you are wrong. I live in Bekasi and work in Jakarta.

If it is not about me being a bule, then what is it about? Are you suggesting that my wife presents herself in such a way that she deserves to be called a pelacurS or any of the other possible derivatives, and a traitor to her culture for marrying a bule? Interesting observation considering you neither know me or my better half personally.

In the kampung where I live there are no problems! Be a participative citizen, enough with the assumptions already. You do not know me so where do you get off telling me about how I should participate in my community?

What we are talking about here is not making small talk or doing the basa basi thing with the locals but rather when we go to a shopping centre or the movies or to lunch and there is some fool thinking that he can say whatever he wants and be as rude as he likes because an Indonesian women has fallen in love with and married a bule or just enjoys hanging out with a bule friend! I do not really get the point about how doing any of the things that I note above constitute behaving unwisely!

Feel free to explain how going to a mall to do a little shopping is unwise behaviour and how that then gives the right to some poor imitation of a man to abuse either my wife or I?

I wonder if this was reversed and we were talking about Indonesian men going out with bule women would the arguments be any different?

Sorry Marisa but this is not how it works in the neighbourhood! Your naive and prejudiced response should probably amaze me but it doesn't. Your suggestion is that once my wife and I have been abused that the reason for the abuse is our own fault and that we should be thankful and start dishing out the lebaran presents. Reminds me a little of the idea of "Hey Mister, mana duit?" The simple rationale being if you’re white you should give and give generously and give often.

I have been living in Indonesia for more than 15 years now. Yep, I know the language, I know the culture, and I know the hoods! Yep, I know it is Indonesia and I do not expect anything else but Indonesia. I am here because I want to be here. If I wanted to be in Vegas I would watch CSI!

I am not sure that either of your posts are serious, particularly after reading the tip that I should not worry about the abuse because whenever someone sees me they have the right to abuse me because I am white and it looks like I have just come out of the TV. Are you kidding me???

If they are not laughing AT me then what is it that they are laughing at and what is it that gives them the right to behave badly and rudely? You are Indonesian, right? Perhaps you can explain your culture to us uncultured white folk who do not understand or know better.

Your "tips" convey a deep misunderstanding of the original post, but even more interesting is your justification of the behaviour of a minority of your fellow Indonesians as "that is just the way it is!"

To each their own...I will leave any other analysis or comments to my equally, perhaps more, capable bule colleagues!